主持人: Donald(加拿大11年级学生)
嘉宾：Stanley、Pam(大学英语老师)
翻译：Albert
录音文字：@赵赵、@洋洋、@小雀斑、@管理员
编辑：加高党
开场白
在教师节来临之际，我们邀请到两位教英语的老师: stanley和Pam上来@加拿大朱凡微信语音平台，就中国留学生关心的英语学习问题同大家交流。他们俩在多伦多大学所教的学生，大部分是中国留学生，多年积累的教学经验非常丰富，所以，他们也非常清楚的知道中国学生在英语学习上的不足和弊病。今年暑假，他们为有需要的中学生举办为期三周的雅思英语课程，反应热烈。他们又是怎么样地帮助留学生提高英语能力的？请听此专访。
熟习中西文化的背景,有助于他们明白中国学生的障碍
Stanley:我是澳大利亚出生的中国人，从墨尔本大学毕业，得到生理学学位，后来参加莫纳时大学拿到了商业系统的硕士学位，再后来一家工程公司工作，通过工作我发现在个人层面去打交道和沟通很重要的，我曾经到南京的一所学校教书，为不同年龄、各行各业的人提供英语的训练，教过中学生出国留学，还有商业的管理人士学好英语与国外客户沟通
Pam：我也是从澳大利亚出生长大的，父母是香港人。中文是我的第二语言，用有限的中文与大家分享，请大家包容。我也在墨尔本大学毕业，读的教育学学士，主攻教其他语言的学生学习英语。毕业实习，我在一所学校专门教新来的学生学习英语。他们就会上一个20周的英语提高课程，帮助他们提升英语知识与技术，帮助他们准备去到本地的学校去学习。在那里的经历让我觉得很了不起，可以认识各个国家的学生，包括难民和豁免的国家来的人。作为中国人，我也非常希望帮助更多的中国人，所以,我在大学毕业后来到了中国南京，在南京工业大学教学生英语，主持大学里的英语角，帮助他们利用英语来沟通，还在英语机构里教学。
我十岁的时候，跟我父母一起去到福州，那时候我就读了一年的四年级，那是我第一次学中文，后来我十六岁的时候又有机会在香港也读了一年的书。我经历过西方国家和中国的教育方式，还有他们不同的教育系统，就使我能够从两方面学到不同的教育方式的长处，也应用在我自己的教学方式。学中文作为第二或第三语言，我也更加的能够敏感到，一些学生学英语时候的困难。
My name is Stanley, and I am what they call an ABC, which stands for Australian Born Chinese. I graduated from the University of Melbourne Australia with a Science degree in Physiology. I later attended Monash University’s Masters of Business Systems program. After graduation I was offered a job at an Engineering company which designs and manufactures cellular panels. I later went into documentary filmmaking. Although documentaries are able to reach people on a mass level, I began to realize the importance of teaching and reaching out to people on a more personal level, and that is how I began my teaching career. I taught in a Private English school in Nanjing called Canilx . This school offers English language instruction to people of all ages and of all walks of life. I have taught high school students who were preparing to leave china to an English speaking country, I have taught business managers whose sole purpose was to communicate with their English speaking counterparts. Later on, my wife and I migrated to Canada, where we are currently involved in a lot of student work both at the high school level and at the university level. We both teach English at the University of Toronto, under the Centre of International Experience.
Hi, I’m Pam. I was also born and brought up in Australia and of Chinese descent. I learned Chinese as a second language. In order to avoid having extra translation, I will try my best to answer in my limited Chinese. Please forgive my limitations. My background is in Education, I graduated from the University of Melbourne Australia with a Bachelor of Education degree, specializing in TESOL, which is Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages. During my teacher training, I had the opportunity to observe and teach in a variety of different schools in Australia, including an English Language school, which caters for students who are new to Australia. The school supports newly-arrived ESL students of primary and secondary age who have been in Australia less than 6 months. Eligible students are offered a 20 week intensive, full time program to improve their English knowledge and skills before enrolling in a mainstream school. I had an amazing experience there and met many students from all different countries, including refugees from war torn countries.
Being of Chinese descent, I had a heart for the Chinese people. So after graduating from University, I went to Nanjing, China to teach English. So for about two years, I taught English to Master Students at Nanjing University of Technology, as well as at a local business language school. While I was there, I conducted English Corners at the university, providing students with the opportunity to converse and mingle with native speakers of English.
从暑假雅思学习课程，发现中国学生的通病，用考试方法学英语
Pam:今年暑假，我们为有需要的中学生举办为期三周的雅思英语课程。之前，因为移居加拿大需要，Stanley专门考了两次雅思，分别是8.5分和9分。我们本身没有参加过任何机构雅思课程，凭着我们的理想，明白学生英语上的不足，专门做了准备。据一位学生分享，他参加了我们组织的和外面培训机构提供的课程，他说我们的的训练课程，专注在基本功、英语基础方面，比如词语和句子的结构，还有口语的互动，很有意思。相反，培训机构的雅思课程训练专注点是在考试的策略，怎么样拿到一个高的雅思分数，因为专注点是找雅思考试的一些规律，去拿高分，所以是用中文去教。考试完了，就忘记。对英语水平的整体提升，帮助不大。
我个人相信，明白这些考试的策略确实是重要的，但是这只是一个短期的解决方法。当同学们去到大学，要去应付学习的压力的时候，若是之前没有好好建立起他们英语沟通技能的基础，就会非常吃力地去应付这些大学的课程。在我们的雅思课程训练，我们去锻炼同学们在写作、阅读、听力、还有口语方面去帮助他们，我们选用的教材和讲课的内容有很广的题目，比如说分享、教导，题目包括不同的人际关系，人格词。科学的题目：科技方面，人体构造、自然环境等等。这些课程训练不单单是锻炼学生们的英语，也帮助他们去接触很广的一些内容，比如在科学、美术、人体学、社会学、心理学、环境科学等等，帮助他们对这些题目有所接触。当我们带领他们去做这些阅读、写作训练的时候，最终也帮助这些同学去明白应该如何学习，如何帮助他们最终。
Stanley: 新学期开始了，跟我们参加雅思课程锻炼的一个同学和我们分享，当他回到自己的高中去读书的时候，他可以回忆起这个夏天在雅思课程训练里学到的一些技能，应该明白怎样去学习现在所面对的科目。在培养一个好的学习习惯时，其中一个重要的元素就是课堂的士气，如果课堂士气是很高的，那每一个学生都会觉得学习、参与是非常兴奋的，课堂学习气氛高的时候，同学们就容易建立起一个健康的关系和每一个人。这也是为什么我们在教导学生们学习英语之外，我们也组织了不同的活动，去促进他们的团队精神。这些活动也鼓励学生去发掘学习的乐趣。活动包括运动、问题解决的游戏、文字游戏、桌游，我们也看到不同的人学习效率最高的时候是当他们发现学习是一个很享受的的事情，可以参与在不同的健康的活动当中。
我们雅思课程不是专门为了盈利而教学，我们希望帮助到真正愿意去学习的学生，而不是他们的家长非要让他们报名而学习的。我们的课程也希望栽培和带领留学生为这个社会做一些贡献，这一期暑假课程结束后我们还组织学生一起参与其他活动，让他们帮助刚刚来到加拿大的学生了解我们的课程与活动，他们都非常热情并且也锻炼自己的语言能力。
During the summer, Stanley and Pam organized an IELTS program for high school students. What would you say are the differences b/w the program that you offered compared to the program other organizations would provide?
We personally have not attended other IELTS program, but we had a student who had attended both our IELTS program as well as another one offered elsewhere.
From his feedback, he identified that our program focuses on the basics and fundamentals, e.g. vocabulary, sentence structure, interacting in English, while the other program focused on the strategies of getting a high IELTS mark, and because their focus was on ‘beating’ the system, they taught the classes in Chinese.
I personally believe that it is important to understand the strategies for achieving a high mark, but that is only a short term solution. Once the student gets into University, he or she will have a hard time coping with their studies because they have not focused in building up the foundation of their English communication skills.
In our IELTS program, we drilled the students in writing, reading, listening and speaking. The books that we chose and teaching material offered subjects that ranged in all kind of topics, from talking about different types of personalities, to science and technology to the human brain to the environment. So not only does our IELTS program drill our students in English, but it also exposes them to a wide range of topics in science, arts, human physiology, sociology, psychology, environmental science. Being familiar with these topics, when going through the reading and writing exercises in the IELTS program, will eventually help high school students understand what their teachers are talking about when they finally attend regular school classes.
One of the students who joined the summer IELTS program recently shared with us that when he went back to regular school for the fall semester, he was able to recall what he had learnt in IELTS and apply the skills and knowledge to the subject at hand.
The most important element in fostering good studying habits, is to build up morale in the class. As long as the morale is high, then each student is excited to learn and to participate. Morale is built up when the students learn to build up a healthy relationship with one another, and that is why apart from teaching the students English, we had also organized some activities that promoted team work, these activities also encouraged these students to have fun while learning. Some of these activities included sports, problem solving activities, word games and board games. We have observed that people learn the best when they are having fun being engaged in healthy activities.
Relationship between the teacher and the student is one major factor in helping the students to improve their English. Throughout the summer program, the students were extremely supportive to us as their teachers and that in turn helped them to improve their level of English. In turn, we have observed in the past that those who do not want to build up a relationship with their teachers or their peers, will not only affect their English levels, but also impede the improvement of others.
Lastly, the objective of our IELTS program is not to make money, but to offer an environment whom are genuinely interested in learning English and building up healthy relationships with their teacher and fellow classmates. And thus our classes are small because we filter out those who are willing to learn, from those who only come because their parents force them to come.
The objective of this IELTS program is to build up a group of people who will also learn to care for the needs of people. Essentially this IELTS program hopes to build up leaders of the future who care and who can make a contribution to society.
For example, after the conclusion of the summer program, we had a group of high school students from China who were new to Canada. We organized a day activity for these new comers. These activities were conducted in English. During the activity, there were some new students whose command of English was extremely weak, and he would have sat through the whole activity without understanding anything. This is the case for many who had just come from abroad to Canada. But at that moment, we were able to assign one of students from our IELTS class to translate and befriend this student so that he would not be ‘lost in translation’. Our student was eager to help and was extremely effective.
不一样的活动，发挥优势帮助在多伦多的留学生
Pam: 大概七年前，我和我丈夫移民到加拿大多伦多，这边有很多外地来的学生，很多国际学生，我们给多伦多大学的国际学生一些英语的帮助，也帮助一些大学生、中学生在加拿大的生活。
现在我们开始已经参与在许多不同 的学生工作，不论是在大学的层面还是高中学的层面。我们两个现在都在多伦多大学教英文，一个叫做国际阅历中心去交英文。我们是怎么样地帮助留学生提高英语能力呢？
有句话说得好，”Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.”意思是：教育不是装满水桶，而是点亮孩子心中的火，让他发光发热。老师的任务就是帮助学生，培养、激发他们的潜力；反观中国教学方式要死记硬背一些知识，那这两种方式各有优势，西方的教育容易失去自律，东方的教育比较死板。
我记得我在中国教书是进入教室教80个学生英语口语，但是我没有那么多时间让他们每个人都讲英语。我就把他们分成5个小组分别讲，但是过了5分钟我发现大部分学生坐在自己的位置不参与小组任务，我就去问为什么你们都不讲话，他们说彼此不认识，小组里也没有人主动组织，我就指定他们每个人做什么去。像这种小组任务，在澳大利亚教的小学生叫他们组织自己的小组是没有问题的，但这些二十几岁的学生却不知道该做什么。他们来到我的口语课堂就坐在那里听我讲半个小时，他们被训练地很乖很安静地听我讲，这是与西方教学差别很大的一点。所以要准备来加拿大留学，要做好演讲的准备，要愿意跟不同的同学、小组一起合作，要主动！你要明白在西方的学生他们从小就开始锻炼做不同的演讲，让学生每次有机会时跟同学、老师介绍玩具等等，比如你怎么得来的玩具，玩具怎么玩等等。要学会组织小组，安排好时间，因为大学没有老师监管你、鞭策你，你要在小组里跟着大家一起成长。
There’s a phrase by William Butler Yeats – a key figure in 20th Century literature Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire. Western Education focuses a lot on independent learning, creativity, interaction and initiation. The teacher plays a role in helping students harness their potential. While the Eastern Education system is much more to do with rote learning.
Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, Western Education, although is much more creative and dynamic, at times lacks discipline. Eastern Education on the other hand is very disciplined, can be quite rigid.
I remember when I first entered into a classroom of 80 masters students. I was meant to teach them spoken English, there is no way you can teach spoken English to a class that size, that was the first mistake, with 80 students, how they even get a chance to speak? However, I had no choice, so I had to think of other ways to make it work. I decided to split them up into small groups of 5. Since these were adults in their early to mid 20s, I asked them to form their own groups, just to gather themselves in groups of 5. After about 5 minutes, I noticed that the majority of them had not moved into their groups. When I asked what was wrong, it turns out that they didn’t really know their classmates and no one took their initiative to form a group. I the end I had to point at them, 1,2,3,4,5, you you you you you, you’re one group! The kids that I had taught back home had no problem forming their own groups, but this group of 25 year olds were too scared to interact with each other. They came to the spoken English class expecting to just listen to me lecture for 3 hours! From that, I realized that all this time, these students have been trained to do one thing and they do it very well. That is to sit there quietly and passively listen to the teacher.
That is one of the main differences between Western and Chinese education.
So when students come over to study, they need to be prepared for endless presentations, they must be willing to work with other people, work in groups, offer ideas, show initiation. You have to understand, that kids in the Western world have been trained to do that since they were 5. I remember when I was in school, even before grade 1, every kid was given a day to do what we call ‘show and tell’, so if you were scheduled for Monday, every Monday, you would bring something to show the class and tell them about it. And every student was given this opportunity.
So to do well in the west, you will have to learn to show initiation, nobody is going to force you or monitor you, particularly when you get to University, your teacher is not going to keep track on how you’re doing. You have to manage your own time, you have to form your own groups. This can be quite intimidating. But if you are prepared, you have nothing to worry about, make friends with people who know what they’re doing and learn from them.
中国学生学英语主要的问题
Stanley: 我觉得中国学生学习英语主要最大的问题呢，就是他们缺乏自信而不敢放胆去讲或者锻炼他们的英文。很多这些同学其实可以很好的用中文去表达自己，当他们来到国外突然转换环境，不能用英语去很好的表达自己的时候，往往会觉得有一份里面还要插进这样的感受，但是那些英语突破不好意思的感受，还有这些不敢放胆去表达障碍的同学，往往在他们的英语水平上面有所突破。举个例子，当我们在多伦多大学做英语辅导的时候，我们也去用一些英语活动去加强同学们的自信心，我们发现当他们自信心有所加强时，他们学习英语表现也有一个很大提升。所以很多时候，中国的同学很喜欢聚在一起，因为他们可以用中文去表达自己，他们往往容易有倾向聚集在一起。所以我常常鼓励中国的同学去找一些本地加拿大的朋友，他们可以用英语去沟通去交流，当然我也明白他们好多人有困难，他们觉得很难去明白本地加拿大同学在说什么，因为目前来说他们的英语还是不够好。所以他们的确有这样的困难，去找到一些本地的加拿大朋友，但是加拿大其实特别在多伦多区是一个多元文化的中心，可以找到很多不同的从各国各地来的人，他们不是说中文的，比如说一些韩国学生，日本同学、还有其他国家学生，伊朗、巴西同学。他们的母语不是说中文的，他们跟中国的学生有个共同点，就是英语不是他们的母语。当大家的母语不是英文的时候，就有一个共同点，所以可以感受到一份自然和亲切，可以彼此说英文。我也认识很多同学，他们勇敢的去寻找的朋友，他们寻找的朋友就不是说中文的，他们认识的朋友跟他们交流沟通的时候，他们的英语水平有很大一个进步。在来加拿大短短一年，他们可以从夜校语言转到本地语言的一个环境。我们也曾经加过一些大学的学生，他们回到自己的国家之后，最终成为他们国家的英语教师。这是因为他们愿意勇敢的去找不同的朋友，这些朋友不是说自己母语的朋友。
What would you say are the main problems that Chinese students’ face in terms of learning English?
The lack of confidence to speak and practice their English is in my opinion the greatest obstacle for Chinese students. Some of these students express themselves very well in Chinese, and they suddenly feel inferior when they can’t express themselves in English. Those who can overcome the barrier of being self conscious usually see an improvement in their English level. When we teach at the university of Toronto we try to use English activities to boost up their confidence and we have found that when their confidence is raised, they perform a lot better.
Also, as a result of the need to communicate, these Chinese students would usually stick with other Chinese who speak their own language.
I have often encouraged Chinese students to find local Canadian friends so that they can practice their English. However I understand that many of them are afraid that they can’t understand the local Canadians, so they are not as confident in finding local canadian friends. However, Canada, especially Toronto is a very multicultural hub. You can always find someone who doesn’t speak Chinese, like a Korean student, Japanese student, Brazilian student, Iranian student. All these students share something in common, and that is English is not their first language. If English is not their first language, then you are on common ground and you don’t have to feel uncomfortable in speaking English. I have known many students who have ventured off in looking for friends who don’t speak their language, and they have significantly improved. Within one year of coming to Canada they have changed from an ESL environment to a completely local English environment.
We have even taught students at a university level, who eventually became English teachers in their own countries, all because they chose friends who did not speak in their own native language.
高中英语没学好就升读大学，隐患重重
Stanley: 我们教过不同的大学学生，他们从高中养成英语的习惯是会影响到他们大学学习的。多伦多学校的教育评委，正在研究报告，有些同学们仅仅过他们在高中的英语考试合极线，这些同学往往更大可能在大学里英语成绩不好而退学，很多同学在退学后，很害怕告诉他们的父母亲，因为最终他们花了很多钱，没有成就到任何事情。
举一个极端的例子，是关于大学生因为忽略英语基础而受到影响。在几年前澳大利亚一个大学里曾经有一个博士生，他碰到很多问题去学习，因为他的英语不太好所以很难去表达自己，最后英语水平不够的原因，他感受到很大的压力，还有很多忧虑，这些压力最终太多的时候，使他承受不了了，他最终选择用枪去射击他的同班同学。所以这是非常极端的例子，在澳大利亚很少听过枪支的罪案，但是这个例子帮我们看到，一个人没办法适应英语的环境，很难用英语去沟通，最终导致这样一个悲剧。
How does the performance of a high school student’s English affect their future at university (as you have taught multiple students at university ) ?
There is a joint research project currently being conducted by the Toronto school board and the university of Toronto. Their current findings indicate that students who barely passed their English exam in high school had a much higher tendency to drop out f university. Many students who drop out are too afraid to tell their parents and they ended up squandering a lot of money yet achieving nothing.
A more extreme example of university students suffering from the neglect of building a stronger English foundation can be shown in a case that happened a few years back in an Australian university, min ash university. A Chinese PhD student had a lot of trouble with his English, and as a result he was under a lot of stress and pressure. This stress finally erupted and he began to shoot his fellow students. It is very rare to hear of firearm related cases but this was caused as a result of his ability to communicate and to relate properly with people.
给中国家长和留学生的建议
Pam: 语言跟文化其实是不能分开的，如果学生想提高他们的英语，非常重要的是他们参与一些群体，其实他们除了在学校以外的本地人相处，学生可以参加一些义工，也可以参加体育班、体育队、或参与教会里面。这些不同的活动，给同学们有机会建立健康的友谊，在不同方面还是用英语，在日常生活中用英语与这边有好的习惯的人建立这些友谊。
Stanley：在我的教书经验里，我发现那些真正对西方文化有兴趣的同学们，通常很快在英语水平上突飞猛进。我曾经认识一些同学，他们花时间去看英语节目，那不单单他们英语水平提升了，而他们用词这些心里程度、地道用词也提升了。但是观看这些英语的娱乐节目，在电视上还是有一个缺点就是现在越来越多有这样的趋势：电视节目、网上节目，有一些不好的粗俗语言或者是一些不好的性的一些镜头，如果避免这样的情况，我会建议去看一些90年代所制作电视节目，虽然现今电视节目虽然有些娱乐性，但是确实对心灵来说毫无价值，我们必须选择看的节目要有智慧。
另一点的建议就是参加教会，我发现参加教会其实是非常有益处的一件事。我鼓励这些父母亲和这些孩子一起来参加教会，我观察到那些愿意参加教会的同学往往在英语程度上进步快，比那些不愿意参加教会的同学进步更快、更大，实际上不一定是这样子，对于每个人来说，但是从我观察上来说，确实留意到有这个现象，教会不单单关于宗教，参加教会跟其他人建立健康的关系，也是建立好的习惯，从圣经里面帮助年轻人建立好的习惯。 所以在教会这样子一个环境里提供给年轻人一个团体，这些团体里的人都是有健康的思想，和这些好习惯。那因为不喜欢好的习惯的人，往往不愿意参加教会，所以在教会里取舍意识其实很强，取舍意识非常重要，不单单可以帮助与其他人有一个很舒畅的关系，也会有一个意愿和其他人建立起一个健康的友谊。
那关于学习英语，另外一个可能性想建议这些父母亲可以考虑将孩子，让他们到更小的加拿大一些镇上去生活，那边会更少人讲中文，所以如果你的孩子必须学习英语去生活，这些小镇经过一两年的学习时间，在小镇待一两年之后，他们英语水平已足够去帮助他们适应大学的时间，这时候可以到比较大的城市，比如多伦多大学去学习。我们所分享的就到这个地步了，如果你们有什么问题可以现在问如果没有我们就结束今天的演讲了。
What suggestions can you give to Chinese parents & students?
Language and culture are inseparable. Therefore, in order for a student to improve in their English, it is important that they become part of a community where they can interact with local people outside of the school context.
Students can sign up for volunteer programs, or sport groups, or attend church. These also provide students with opportunities to build up healthy relationships with people who have good habits.
From my teaching experience, I have noticed that those who are genuinely interested in western culture will usually excel in their English standard. We have known students who spend time watching English speaking entertainment, and not only does their English improve, but the nuances, the slang also improves. However, the only set back with the content on TV is that there is a growing trend in using foul language and sexual content. In order to avoid this habit, I would recommend TV programs that were made in the 90s. A lot of programs nowadays on TV is very entertaining but is really garbage for the mind, so choose your programs wisely.
I attend church, and I have found it to be very beneficial, and so I also encourage parents and students to attend church. What I have observed is that those who willingly attend church do much better in terms of English and school work than those who do not want to attend church. Although this is not the case for everyone, but from my observations, that is the case. Of course, church is not just about religion, but it is about learning to build up a healthy relationship with one another, and building up good habits that are taught in the bible.
The church also provides a community of people with healthy habits. People who do not engage in healthy habits will not want to attend church in the first place.
The sense of community is extremely important because it is only when you are with people that you are comfortable with, you can then have the desire to build up healthy relationships.
In terms of English, another option that parents can consider is to send their children to smaller Canadian towns where there are less people speaking Chinese. Then your child will be forced to learn English. After 1 or 2 years of high school experience, their English would have improved enough for them to be transferred to a university in a larger city such as the University of Toronto.
问：小孩准备一年后去读11年级，是在国内考雅思好？还是加拿大考？
Pam：无论在国内外考雅思都没有问题的，重要的是准备好，因为考试费用很贵，加拿大报名考雅思需要300元加币，没准备好就报考万一没有通过对下一次报考也会有一定的心理影响。
Stanley：雅思成绩两年有效这个需要考虑的因素之一，刚到加拿大学习一段语言之后再去考试对学生是有好处的，也可以在国内先考一次，可以了解到英语水平需要哪些提升。
Pam：大部分的学生比较弱的是听力、口语，可以在阅读是讲出来单词，多练习多说多读。
问：：请问老师们有什么针对中学生的英文书推荐看的？
Stanley：现在孩子喜欢看漫画，可以找一些好的、健康的漫画书，这也是一种方法。《Asterix》、《TinTin》。
Pam：我在学中文时就是看漫画《叮当》，我有兴趣我就愿意看。
Stanley：还有的年轻人喜欢看侦探小说比如《Sherlock Holmes》，不过刚开始不要直接看原著，可以看简化版的，慢慢的来熟悉；英语水平好一些的可以看原著因为书里所用的单词都很好！
问:近期有什么活动可以推荐，有助于孩子建立友谊？
Pam：我们比较了解的就是加拿大不同的竞技活动，在开学前可以参加不同的夏令营，可以认识新的同学，通过参与不同的游戏跟其他人相处，所以鼓励学生多报名参与夏令营和课外活动。
